The Teacher Salary

63 Comments

When you are comparing these hourly rates, please keep in mind that teachers are only paid for the hours that they have students present. We also have to spend time making up new lessons and grading-tasks that are rarely done during our normal 'business hours'.

This is really unbelievable. Yes, I am a teacher, on the top of the salary scale with 18 years experience. I have a masters degree and my plus 30. . . and I am barely feeding my family. Remember, if you are a teacher and living comfortably, you are probably single, or married to a spouse that makes good money. I am supporting my spouse and two children. We dont live lavishly, we struggle. We just went bankrupt and dont drive new cars. We managed our money well and never spent foolishly. My husband became disabled and we were forced to live on my income. I am working two jobs to make ends meet. Why is it that a college educated individual with a masters degree and more, can hardly live the American dream? And that dream is just supporting a family of four without financial stress. I wish America could see this. By the way, I just spend $450.00 on a class that I have to take to keep my teaching certidicate. Also, never compare a career that takes no education, to a career that takes an incredible amount of education.

Single and living comfortably? Yes, if I want a starter home, drive a Ford escort, eat mac and cheese, hamburger helper, and shop at Walmart , then I am living comfortably. My house payment, car payment, living expensives, insurance, etc. are just as expensive as yours. You are probably receiving government assistance and will continue so until your children graduate from college or turn 21. NO TEACHER IS PAID WELL--MARRIED, SINGLE , CURRENTLY TEACHING, OR RETIRED.

I don't see how any school teachers in the United States, or St. Louis,whether you single or married can live off of salaries like that, you all the respnonsibility that come with the jobs, You would have to love the children and the work! I am just amazed!

As a lifetime certificated high school teacher in Texas (with a doctorate), the highest salary in SY07-08 for Texas was for the Hurst-Euless-Bedford school district at 54K. However, there are very few openings! Moving to an "off-road system of North America" school district in Alaska pushed my salary up 20K. There are few people who can/will make the move to rural Alaska, but the need is great because the teacher-turnover rates are so high. The Law of Supply & Demand governs teacher salaries in Alaska. There are many openings here!

Oh, and don't worry about the cost-of-living in Alaska --unless you are teaching in one of the city schools. The COL for Fairbanks, Anchorage, etc are quite high. However, the COL for rural Alaska FOR TEACHERS is quite low as housing/utilities are provided cheaply to you.

Let's just hold on there a minute teachers. I've had this conversation before with teachers and it is always the same underpaid sob story. What is always missing is this: First of all nobody ever twisted anyone's arm to become a teacher ..... it was your choice so stop whining. Next, the average teacher works 180 to 190 days a year compared to 240 for the average private sector worker. Most states have the tax payer pick up most or all of the tab for health care, the best health care. In most states teachers are fully vested and can retire after no more than 30 years on the job (some places as little as 20) with retirement income 2 to 3 times higher than the average private sector worker gets from social security after putting in 40 to 45 years on the job. Don't get me wrong here. I appreciate teachers, I certainly wouldn't want to be one in today's schools, but on the other hand, I am tired of listening to the whining about how bad they have it. If apples are compared to apples ........ lets add in the shorter work days per year, add in the terrific benefit packages during their working years, add in the earlier retirement with extremely good retirement benefits and income ...... yes, lets add all that together and compare that to the average private sector worker ...... and let us not forget that once you become a teacher with a few years under your belt, tenure in your profession almost guarantees lifetime employment no matter how good or dismal your performance as a teacher is. Add all of that together and teachers have it better, way better than a comparable private sector worker. Stop your whining!

WOW! 40 years you seem to have it all figured out. I am not sure what century you are referring to when it comes to teacher working conditions and salary, but your outsider looking in summation is way off base. Have you missed the present education accountability movement? The security of the teaching profession is at risk EVERY single day. The push for EVERY American student to be academically proficient in less than 5 years from now has changed the game dramatically. Do you recall EVERY student in EVERY grade you were EVER in being proficient at everything? The BEST health care? Bwhahahahahahahahah! Is health care the best when your district chooses your insurer for you and there is only one choice? I would certainly like to know where the taxpayers pick up the tab for my family's insurance when 20% of my "on-paper" salary pays the premiums for my coverage. Shorter work days? Shorter work years? They only exist theoretically. On average I spend 11 hours a day in my classroom. During the summer break-I am in classes or some other form of professional development that usually leaves me with only a solid week or two of non-work related activity time. No where in your dissertation did you even mention the massive amounts of my own money that I must spend for my classroom in order to ensure that ALL of my students have a level playing field. So far this school year, I have spent over $500 and the second semester has not even begun yet. BTW I can only claim $250 of this expanse on my tax return. I have worked in the private sector and never had to purchase my own supplies, had my choice of 2 or 3 health care plans to choose from, I was able to choose my own retirement plans, and was even able to be reimbursed for tuition as I worked to improve my skills. Yes, I chose this profession. I chose it because rather than shoot random darts of perception at the front lines of the battle for our childrens' futures, I would rather commit to taking up arms and fighting for and with our children so that they may have a fighting chance at being able to build lives for themselves down the road. If you think teachers whine too much, I challenge you to go spend one week volunteering in a school in the largest urban district in your state.

Gr8teacher ....... you did a fine job of sidestepping all the points I made with accountability movement and what I can deduct off of my taxes and etc. Let me start this rebuttal with ..... quit your whining. This exactly proves my point, teachers are whiners. You sidestepped, you twisted, you spun, you misdirected ..... but what you did not do was directly disprove any of the points I made. 180 to 190 days a year .... that's what the average teacher is required to work ..... period. You are also not required to work 11 hours a day, if you do you choose to ..... good for you now quit your whining. And every American student becoming academically proficient at everything in five years ...... yeah right, let's talk real world here ..... that's not going to happen and we both know it so let's stay on topic shall we. This "on paper" salary you talk about ...... I really have no clue how your public employee union twists figures, but I can tell you this ..... I happen to live in Oregon, and I just so happen to pick up 100% of the insurance tab for our overworked teachers ...... they pick up 0%, and that's a fact. And this isn't any run of the mill insurance ..... average about $880. per month per school district employee. And what's this "theoretical" shorter work years. There's nothing theoretical about it. You work 20 to 30 years and you are fully vested and depending on your age and the state you live in can retire with an incredible package of income and benefits for life ..... that's a fact not theory. You just never hear about the waitress that works 5 or 6 days a week for minimum wages and tips whining like teachers. Or the guy picking up your trash early in the morning, or the guy banging his knuckles raw trying to keep your Honda Prius or Subaru Outback on the road. Or the nurses aid wiping your but when your 85 and in a cushy retirement or nursing home. These and millions of others ..... countless millions will never have the comfortable retirement you will have, and they don't whine. They don't threaten you with shutting down the schools and sending the kids home if they don't get their next union contract. They just go about their work every day for 40 or 50 years and then live on their meager social security checks and what they were able to squirrel away over their lifetimes. But they don't whine like teachers. And the worst part of all is that most of these millions of workers making your life comfortable for you with their taxes didn't even choose their professions like teachers. That's the way the real world works. Most of these people took a job out of necessity ..... the necessity of eating and a place to lay their head, and then time just takes it's toll and most real folks just continue doing what pays the bills. But they don't whine like teachers. You teachers on the other hand ...... why you chose to be teachers ...... so then why are you whining? Here's a little advice. Do your job or find another. If you think it's so hard being a teacher try trading places with a bartender for a while .... or a septic tank cleaner, or a waitress or fry cook. I seriously doubt that any of this will sink in, because I have known teachers, and like most "public employees" they see the world all skewed ...... from a "woe is me and somebody needs to take care of me" perspective. Last point: Get our children s grades and academic abilities up ...... at least as high as other developed nations ...... get back to teaching academic skills not "I have two daddies or Two mommies", leave the morality lessons to the parents, it's not your business ........ and stop your whining. .

41years, you are right. I waited tables, worked in retail, and sat behind a desk typing all day answering calls from unhappy customers to finance my education. It was MY choice to become a teacher and I knew what my salary was going to be. I experienced the long hours during my student teaching that were necessary to get the job finished although I was only "obligated" to work 8 each day. I absolutely LOVE my job. There is nothing else in the world I would rather do. I didn't take this job ever thinking I was going to become rich and the benefits for retirement and healthcare suit me just fine. Only having one option is much better than no option for coverage. A pension for retirement sounds great after putting in 30 years, better than social security if it still exists when I am in my 60's. While I do spend my own money on my classroom and students, it brings me joy to present to my class a wonderful lesson that I put my own time into developing. In this profession I have room to be creative, to reflect on my work and make adjustments, I am challenged to help each of my students and while I am also held accountable it does not stress me out. I know that some of my students will require extra help. I am fortunate enought to work in Georgia where tenure is a thing of the past as it should be. I am able to work along side professionals who love their teaching jobs and love their students and we all have one common goal. If someone does not like the pay, the benefits, the retirement, the extra time necessary to be a really great teacher, they should move on to a profession that compensates them for each hour they put in. I for one am thrilled to be a teacher and able to make a difference in the lives of children each day. Oh, I also teach children with Autism, so it isn't like I have an easy class and get to teach out of textbooks. I am required to make everything for my students so they are able to participate to their fullest potential.

I've read all your postings and can see the pros and cons of becoming a teacher. I was looking for advice concerning which Master's Degree I should pursue before retiring from the military. As much as I'd like to sit on the couch and arm-chair/coach football, my wife insists I get a job. I have a passion for teaching and want to teach in California. I'm about to graduate with a BA in History and want to teach History or Social Studies when I eventually retire. Any advise?

Gr8 teacher y (12/29/09) I teach in Florida. I spend countless hours in my classroom. Hours furthering my learning to better educate the youth of tomorrow. Not only am I trying to teach manners, respect, and be a good citizens. One day these generation of kids is going to be in charge of our nation. Has anyone ever tried to to reach one kid to do the right thing. Just because it is the right thing to do. And give instruction make sure a child succeeds in his or her own learning style and keep a portfolio. And try one's darnest to get parents involve in education, not pettiness? Do the data that the states are requiring to keep your job? Have high expectations of a student and the parents could care less. I do all this because I love to teach and inspire. Like you I have worked all the dead end jobs, taught adults, supervised adults only to find that their behaviors are often more irrational than children.

I agree, I'm tired of teachers whining for more and more. They're already paid more than the market can afford. Please, I'm sick of hearing how many hours they put in after they go home from their classes. The fact is, 1st that's your choice, and 2nd. Most don't and say they do. Come on, when papers need grading, teachers have their helpers (paid for also by the tax payers), they give them from one class to another to check, or now a days, they're graded by machines (computers). This is a seasonal job. No other job in AMERICA, is compensated so well for a seasonal job. Why do teachers get paid for annual leave? They're off all Summer, Weekends, 2 weeks for Christmas, and all the other Holidays. More time off than any other job in America for a very (IN MY OPINION) over paid baby sitting job. I don't know about other states, but in Fl., teachers are also given 10 other free days off to use as they wish. WHY? If they don't feel like coming into work, they just have to call and say their not coming in for the day. Plus they're furnished sooooo many aids, Again, WHY? Because teachers pawn off a lot of their work to the aids. These poor aids do A LOT of the teachers job and are paid a meager salary (a little above minimum wage), no paid Holidays, and then to protect this meager aid position, they make them also pay Union dues. The Average Teacher is paid, for their seasonal job, almost as much as what 2 family members have to work all year to make. There are 365 days in a year. Out of that 365 days, with all the time off teachers get, they may work approximately145 days out of the 185 day school year. COME ON, stop the whining. And yes, If I had the finances or opportunity given to the last 2 generations, I would have been a teacher. Beats working you A$$ of all year for less money, few days off, including Holidays, cushy air conditioned and heated class rooms, discounted prices for lunch, helpers (Aids), with meager class sizes, and the list goes on. I am too old now, but we had to learn in classes with 40 to 50 kids to the class, and we did. Look at most of the teachers today. Many, if not most have become so relaxed and lazy, they've gotten "big, fat, and over extended". If you don't like the job or you think you're under paid, GET OUT. And I don't believe in preference hiring. If you don't qualify, you don't qualify.

I would like to start off by saying that all of you bashing on teachers is ridiculous! If it werent for the hard working teachers of this country none of you would even have a computer to use. Yes, teachers may work a lot less then the "normal" worker does, but like all you keep saying is its your choice to be a teacher well it is your choice to not be a teacher. at some point you choose the profession that you are in. Teachers dont become teachers to get rich and live in a big house or drive fancy cars, they do it becausse they love the job of teaching. Someone said that teachers are over paid babysitters, wow i was amazed at this comment. If your kids where not in school being "baby sat" what would they be doing? So before you want to make comments like that think of the big picture. With out a high school school education and a college education in this country now of days it is almost impossible to find a decent job with out putting in the years of service. Also i read that after 20 30 years we get to retire and live comfortably well i am here to say that there are many jobs that people can retire after a lot shorter time. The problem is that everyone wants to live outside there means and have a lavish lifestyle. If we want to compl;ain about anything that has to do with money how about all of the actors and the sports figures in the world making millions that contribute nothing to making this country a better place

You're forgetting a few things Ridge ...... we are paying your salary and you are working for us ..... you are not paying our salary and we are not working for you. With that being said, we expect you to work hard, teach our kids well and stop your whining. You are overpaid as it is and every year you come back for more. And I am glad to see that you are comparing your self to actors and sports figures, you obviously do understand that your pay and benefits are closer to theirs than to ours .... the average taxpayer that is funding your lifestyle.

Here is my two cents. I am currently a student teacher the has been looking for job openings and I stumbled onto this site. It has provided a wealth of information, for which I thank the operators of this site. Now on to the topic at hand. 41years, if I am reading your comments correctly you point out how short our work days are and how short our work "season" is and a few other things. I will attempt to answer these as directly as I can. While you seem set in your opinion, I will provide mine. Remember I don't have experience with all of this, I'm just offering my input. Also note I'm not complaining, I'm not becoming a teacher expecting to become rich. I do it because its what I want to do and I can't see myself doing anything else. Short work hours- Yes we are in the classroom for a shorter time per day than a "normal" job. We do have after school activities to work with. In a smaller school (like the ones I would like to work at) teacher HAVE to be involved outside of the classroom. While I know they are compensated for the extra responsibility, a former teacher ran the numbers for the number of hours he spent compared to the "extra" income. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it wasn't much. I know another teacher that has had a week of not getting home till around 11PM at night due to a basketball tournament. He coaches the team because he wants to, but it begins to wear on you as well. Shorter work "season" Yes, we have fewer work days a year. Does this mean we have June July and August for vacation? In some cases yes. If money was managed wisely sure we can. Does this mean all will? No. I fully expect to find a short term temp job in a factory somewhere during the summer. Tenure From what I understand, you can be removed from a tenured position. Especially with some of the NCLB laws. I also point out is can be hard to get those consecutive years in one school. Some schools have a system for cutting costs. They hire band new teachers right out of school because we are cheaper. Right before we would receive tenure, we don't get our contracts back. The school then gets another brand new teacher to lower their costs. Yes it happens. I personally know people that have been through this, some several times. Retirement- I was unaware of the difference in retirement ages. However, I have been in a classroom only about a month, and I go home everyday (at 3:30 pm by the way...I don't have the after school activities to deal with yet.) TOTALLY physically and mentally exhausted. It wears more on a body than you think to be on your feet all day long. Mentally because you are on the spot the entire time. We are, in effect, on stage from 8 AM 3 PM five days a week. The lower retirement age I do believe reflects the higher burn out rate in teachers. Besides, I know teachers that have been teaching far beyond the lowest possible limit. They are the people that teach because its what they love to do, and are usually the best teachers too. I think I covered a good chunk of your comments. Again, you seem to have your opinions and I'm not bashing them, or trying to make excuses. I am simply trying to point out how I see the profession. Do we have perks? Yes. Are there drawbacks? Again, yes. Would I trade the reputation the teaching profession has for being "underpaid"? No I would not. Frankly if people thought they could make big bucks teaching, they would become teachers just for the money. This is not the mind set we need in our nation's teachers. I would prefer to staff our classrooms with people who genuinely care about educating the youth of our country and are willing to be paid a little less. There are enough bad teachers out there as it is (I have had several), we don't need to attract more by offering a large paycheck.

41,000 years...your comments make me sick...first off if you think teachers make way more than you, and its so easy and stress free, why don't you go to school and become a teacher? Or, you can shut your mouth and stop complaining! You seem to say everyone here is whining, but you seem to be whining the most. You are also completely clueless. No one is whining about teacher salaries going up so they can be rich, but people that work as teachers still need to make a salary that pays enough to support a family and live comfortably. And if you are not going to pay people an affordable salary to take on the responsibilities of a teacher, then teachers should just be babysitters and nothing more. We can just stop requiring people to get teaching degrees and hire all the kids from BK and MacDonald's to babysit your kids. Then we can lower teaching salaries to minimum wage. Is that what you want? All this nonsense of we work for you because you pay taxes? Guess what pal, last time I checked, I'm pretty damn sure I paid taxes too. So I guess according to your logic that makes me my own boss. I was a New York City teacher for only one year. I could not survive on the salary, even with a second job (I drove a garbage truck during the summer). So now I work for the Long Island Railroad as an Engineer. I made more my first year than a 20 year teaching veteran. Yet people are complaining about teacher's pay? People need to eat, including teachers end of story. I'm a qualified teacher 40 years, and I'm a very good hardworking teacher. But I'm not a teacher anymore because I can't support my family. Don't you want people that are committed and hardworking to teach your kids? I can guarantee your kid a great education if I'm teaching, because I know the effort I put in. But how do you expect me to do it, if you can't pay me enough to live? Why are you on this site anyway? It's for teachers in case you didn't know. But you probably didn't realize because your so ignorant from being taught by people from BK and MacDonald's because it was more important to cut salaries and lose quality teachers than paying some guy a halfway decent wage to give you a great education. Anyway, who here teaches in Florida? Can you live off the pay with two kids, and a wife that works? Palm Beach County is actively recruiting me. I just wanted to know what its like. Any thoughts?

Many people of years gone by had no choice of a profession. They were not given all the freebies and preference moneys available back in their day to get an education . As for actors and sports figures, they're not paid for with the tax dollar. They are paid by the private market of supply and demand, and what the people are willing or can afford to pay. Teachers are paid more than the market can afford. Yes, many jobs today require a high school diploma, some college, or a college degree to get a decent job, but one doesn't need these to get rich, or have a decent salary. Most rich people have, are, or were drop outs, only a high school diploma or some college. It all depends on ones drive or ideas on how to get what one needs or wants in this life. Yes, it is the American Tax payer that pays teachers salaries, and yes, we are their boss. But because of tenure and teachers unions, they tell us what they want and what to do. Ever been to a PTA. They NEVER, or rarely, listen to the parents. The teachers control the whole thing. They need to get rid of the "P", and call it the "TA" (Teachers Assoc.), cause unless your a suck up parent, out for their own gain, for their little precious, they don't care what any of the other parents feed back is. Parents have VERY LITTLE say today in what is taught our children. There is also A VERY LOT OF WASTE in our schools today. Toooo many chiefs, figure heads, and we need to ELIMINATE the "DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION". that Jimmy Carter put in during his term a President. What a waste of tax payers dollars. Get rid of just that and there's a large portion of moneys that can be given to the GOOD TEACHERS. If a teacher has tenure, and there is a good case for firing them, it takes up to 2 years to get rid of that bad teacher. In my experience, since it is so costly for the process to fire that bad teacher, the school system, most all the time, just shifts the bad teacher around till they retire, then that bad teacher gets to retire and live off the tax payer till their demise. This would not be tolerated in the private sector. I'd estimate, at least 50% of our teachers aren't worth a plug nickle. We need to privatize all schools, and let them be paid what the market will bear. Of course, the good, and best ones will be paid the most, and the rest will have to work toward being better teachers or get out. Just ask many of the students, they know which teachers are good and which are down right lazy. Even our news paper had an article last year asking "WHY DO TEACHERS GIVE SO MUCH MAKE WORK, instead of teaching. That's so many of them can stay seated in their cushy chair and not get up to do their job and teach. That's why sooo many of them have become BIG, FAT, AND OVEREXTENDED. As for standing, most don't know what truly standing long hours is. Try doing jobs that do require standing for 8 or more hours a day, and no leaning on ANYTHING, for decent or even menial wages. Yes, there are many good teachers, but because of tenure, our system keeps toooo many bad ones. Not like the very good teachers out there, most all the bad ones ARE there because of all the time off they get, holidays, all summer, weekends, benefits, etc. Seasonal job with great benefits, while most Americans have to work ALL YEAR long, with very little, or no time off and no benefits. Remember, there is 365 days in a year. A school year is only 185 days, with annual time off, holidays off, no weekends, 10 free days to just call and say they don't feel like working a particular day, and everything else. An average working year, for teachers, is around 140 days, more or less. Sounds great to me. Wish I had all the freebies and free moneys available when I was young, and new then what I know now. Yes, I'd of become a teacher, AND A VERY GOOD ONE. I'd of also had all that time off, like they get, to be with their families. When I was in school, there was anywhere from 40 to 50 students per class, and no air conditioning, just big roof fans and we had to open window for air. Yet, with this many per class, we were able to learn. No special preference for all the special needs children. They learned with the help from other students, not from some over paid specialist. Isn't it funny how the older generations read, write, and spell better than these last few generations, with all the benefits and much smaller class sizes. That was a generation of devoted and very good teachers. And yes, there were some bad ones, but not like the bad ones of today. As for "jdbishop6", you, and most all teachers don't pay near the amount in property taxes required of what is demanded and legally stolen from the tax payer. I guarantee, I pay anywhere from 5 to 10 times a year more in property taxes, than the average person, including you. I have no say in how much they bleed me for. There is no where in our CONSTITUTION that says ANYONE is owed an education, yet our wasteful government has made it mandatory. MORE THEFT without the vote of the people. I'm sick of preference too. Like the special needs children, that will NEVER,EVER, be able to use or be able to be educated because of their handy caps. This system hires some exorbitantly over paid specialist to basically BABY SIT these children, all day, with the help of a helper, who does most and all the work for them, for a menial salary. WHYYYYY? Those poor children should be home with the parent that had them. If that parent wants some free time away from the child, it would be cheaper for the tax payer to provide a qualified baby sitter 1 or 2 days a week. Also, it doesn't take a college degree to teach children, as "60 MINUTES" proved several years ago on one of their specials. Just someone that really has the love of, IS NOT BORING, wants to teach. Get rid of all the bad teachers, tenure, The DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, all freebies, and all the other unnecessary things the tax payer is forced to pay for, and there will be plenty of moneys left for good teachers. We need to privatize. They don't have these problems in private schools. As a matter a fact, if one comes from a private school, colleges are more inclined to accept a student from the private school than from our so called public schools. That should tell one something right there. Public schools are inferior. This is not an attack on the good teachers out there. You know who you are, and so do your students. It's for the ones who know they're using the system, too lazy to do their job, are BORING the kids to death instead of trying to make the subjects interesting, are afraid of rebuttal from a student that may think differently, always wanting the students to be seen and not heard, and the list goes on and on. Those teachers know who they are and need to stop and think, What would I like my teacher to be like if I was still in school. Just this one area would make for improvement on a becoming a good teacher.

"As for "jdbishop6", you, and most all teachers don't pay near the amount in property taxes required of what is demanded and legally stolen from the tax payer." " I pay anywhere from 5 to 10 times a year more in property taxes, than the average person, including you." What are you smoking? How do you figure you pay more property taxes than me? I pay $10,000 a year on property tax in Long Island. How much do you pay? I'm not a teacher anymore but when I was I definitely didn't get any tax breaks, so whatever state your from where they do, I'd love to move there. And I can guarantee if you privatize all schools you will be paying at least double what you pay now. Go look at the prices for any Catholic school if you don't think so.

Sorry, but you need to look at statistics. Our Public School system charges 3 times and more per student, per year than the private schools, Catholic included. The private schools also give a better education, and get higher test scores than public schools. Why do you think colleges accept students with high test scores from private schools before they do from public schools? Long Island, "WOW", must be nice. And yes, this sorry tax and spend government soaks me for almost $60,000. in property taxes a year to pay to educated others children, and then to top it all off, I get to also pay full price for my children. I say, if you can't afford them, don't have or educate them on my buck. You ever hear the story of the "Grass hopper and the Ant"? Well, I'm one of those ants, that started with NOTHING, and this government penalizes the productive and rewards the non- productive. In my state, over 50% of child births are paid for through MEDICAID (Welfare). If these people can't afford to pay for the kids they bring into this world, where do all the teachers think the money is going to come from? I surely didn't have the pleasure, as many others, of producing all those little PARASITES. So why should the rest of us have to pay for them? I say "NIP IT IN THE BUD". Any one that produces children they can't afford, fix them after the 2nd. one. Also, NO FREE EDUCATION FOR ILLEGALS, and no freebies for preference anything. So sorry, if one can't afford it, someone has to do the dirty work. If this were to happen, there would be a huge over abundance of teachers. Then all those extra teachers would have to get out and get a real job. Find out what it's like to have to really work for a living. Get out of those cushy air conditioned class rooms and work ALL YEAR for their salaries as the majority of us have to do.

New to the site and here is my story, I just retired from the Air Force with 20 years and I had an office job for the whole time. I did teach as an AF training instructor (not drill instructor) teaching the office duties such as working PCs and reports in an office environment. I was able to complete my BS in Graphic Design months before I left. Now the job market for a brand new designer is extremely low for a family of 7 to live on. So I had to look for jobs in the Personnel/HR/Office type of work since that was my strong point. I searched high and low and saw that many jobs started off in the low/mid 30Ks, even civilian government jobs; anything higher and I was automatically considered not qualified. One thing I did notice was the number of vacation days all the jobs offered; from 14 – 20 days a year, 25 days after 5 – 10 employment. That was an eye opener since the military automatically gives 30 days a year. My wife kept asking me about teaching since I did enjoy teaching in the AF but I kept saying no since they have “low” pay and I was still looking for something comparable to my recent active duty pay about upper 40Ks. After two months of being shot down with either no reply back or the typical not qualified, I told my wife that teaching would work only if she went back to work also (she used to be an English teacher and counselor); that very least we would make low 60Ks together plus my military retirement would bring the family income to mid 70Ks. So with that amount really got my attention, not to mention all the time off they get. Military Veterans have a program called Troops to Teachers where veterans with a bachelors degree could become school teachers and in most cases start off as a 5th year teacher with pay and seniority. I applied and got approved to teach Art Education (cause of my degree) but the problem was that it was November and hiring would not start till summer. I still had a family to support so recently I had to accept an office job out of state. Now my wife is looking to get her certificate adjust to our new home state and I will be looking to follow up with the Troops to Teachers program here in the new future since summer is coming up. So my final comment is that being in the military and traveling allot, I have learned to cherish family time over the extra pay. So taking lower pay job and being off the same time as my kids has a bigger reward than those high paying, overtime, 2 weeks off a year jobs. I have heard all the pros and cons about being a teacher but I still look forward to it especially doing something I enjoy teaching and art.

TO cgbill2 if you are getting yours MA or MS, make it in the content area you want to teach, NOT in Instruction/Curriculum Design. Which the MEdId will make you a superior teacher, it will not give you the flexibility of teaching at the post-secondary level. Good luck.

Wow, is all I have to say. Is it really that bad? I have wanted to teach since I was in Elementary School. Now, I'm a year into college, only taking my basics at the moment, and still questioning whether to major in education or something else. I've heard teaching positions are hard to find at the moment and while trying to find more information, I stumbled across this page. Frankly, after reading these comments, I'm not sure if I even want to think about being a teacher anymore. You people make it sound like the most horrible thing ever.

Oh and 41years, I'm not a teacher, but I still believe you are being a little harsh. These people went for something they really wanted to do and stuck with it. Which I can guess you probably didn't. I may be wrong, but you are complaining an awful lot to actually be happy with your life. I'm not very old, but I'm not stupid either. I admire teachers for what they do, and if they want to complain about a few things, why shouldn't they be able to? Everyone has a right to his or her own opinion, which unfortunately for them, so do you. And some teachers really do have it hard. They don't make much money and they have to work long hours, EVEN if they do get the summer off. I've had far too many great teachers over the years to just sit here and not say something to you. And complaining about paying taxes, who doesn't pay taxes? There is no reason for you to blame teachers for taxes, when really, isn't it more important to actually have teachers? They got to school for 4+ years to make so little money. What would you do, if there were no teachers, huh? Someone's gotta do it and I truly admire every single one of them for it.

Well Mandy, you right about one thing, there are still good teachers, but in my opinion,VERY FEW. Teachers not only get the summer off, they get annual leave, WHYYYYY? THEY'RE ALREADY OFF OVER 1/3 OF EACH YEAR for every holiday weeks there are . They get sick leave, that's fine, but they also get another 10 days on top of that to just call in and say they don't feel like working that day. Must be nice, and I feel they make dm** good money for what they're doing. They are paid more than the market can afford, it's a seasonal job, and the ONLY ONE IN AMERICA that pays such a salary for a part time job. As for working, give me a break. Most of them don't know what real work is. I have a daughter, one of five children, that was passed through all the way to 7th grade, before I said stop. Something is not right. This was by those supposed over worked, non productive teachers. She was at 1 1/2 grade reading level by 7th grade. I had to get her a personal tutor, paying $35.00 for each hour, 2 to 4 hours weekly, just to get her up to her required reading level. She graduated with honors, but not from our sorry public school system. "IF YOUR CHILD CAN READ, THANK THE PARENT". As for "everybody pays taxes". Boy are you way off. The top 2% of the population pays 50% of all taxes, the next 48% pays all the rest. In other words, 50%of the population are parasites, existing and living off the rest of us from government theft. Very few pay the true costs of having and raising a child out of their own pockets. My husband and I raised 5 children at no ones expense. We were VERY, VERY POOR when we started. NO ONE GAVE US ANYTHING. We went for the American dream to prosper with hard work and sacrifice to get where we are today, clearing land with our bare hands, walking through water get to our home, up to our knees with a kid on each hip till we could afford to fill in the land, never going anywhere, hauling 3 to 5 times a day trailer loads of busted block to fill our driveway of 1000 feet for 5 years, by hand, the list goes on and on. We were young. Had no college. couldn't afford it. This is why I say, teachers need to stop Whining. They're paid well over what the market can afford. With all the hard work and sacrifice my husband and I have done over the years to get where we are today, our government now penalizes us for our sacrifices, to redistribute what we worked soooo hard and long for, to all the lazy, parasites, including themselves, who'd never go through what we had to to get where we are today. America has become a VERY LAZY NATION. Oh they're educated, they're educated on how to get all these phony and ridiculous disabilities. Also, check out Japan. They now have robots teaching children. Robots don't need food, sick leave, annual leave, or a salary. Just maintenance. Be careful all you teachers, as your jobs are in jeopardy. Technology will be taking your place.

Also, I don't want to hear anything about my grammatical errors. I already know what they are. It's late, I'm tired, and I have to WORK tomorrow. You know, not in a cushy air conditioned or heated class room. I have to work in the weather, no breaks, not even lunch. And don't tell me if I don't like my job to find another. At my age, hardly possible, and there are only about 5% of jobs people find enjoyable, they're all taken, and all the young bucks want us elders out of their way.

Wow is all I am going to say after reading this. You people keep saying it is our choice to stay after...Well of course we do!! If we didn't we would be half @$$ing everything and your kids wouldn't get anywhere!! And the having students proficient by 2013 was our idea?!?!? How about we point that finger at Bush for the NCLB!!! I looooove when non-teachers try to poke their noses in like they have ANY idea what we go through in the classroom. Especially city schools! And you totally missed the point of 180-190 school days...yes those are manditory days..but if we didn't come in when we aren't scheduled to then NOTHING would be in place!! How dare you talk about something you have no comprehension of! I'm not on here telling heart surgeons how to do their jobs and that is the problem!! Too many people think they know everything!! Try teaching in a city school that has NO technology when that is how the students learn now days! Some of you people are really sad. Your own careers aren't much to talk about so you have to come rip apart another and act like you have any idea what a teacher does. I feel sorry for you honestly. And that bull about "people not choosing their own jobs" seriously? Everyone has a choice so don't throw that crap around. The world would be better off if you would keep your mouth shut on matters you know nothing about.

1st. of all, heart surgeons aren't paid with the American tax payers dollar. Second, many people do know about public school matters and how screwed up, controlled, and over extended it is. One doesn't have to be in the school system to see how screwed the American tax payer is by having to pay more than the market can afford. The public school system has TOO many over paid chiefs and positions in the system they can eliminate that are not necessary, called make jobs . The Union has gotten TOO powerful and needs to be terminated. Even many colleges know how sorry the public school system is when it comes to enrolling new students. They accept private school graduates before they do public school grads. GO FIGURE, a lot of somebody's aren't doing the job their paid for. If I don't do my job, I get fired. Ever try to fire a teacher? TOO MANY bad ones in the system. Want a better salary, get rid of the bad teachers if you can, and you all know who they are, even the students do. Then, let the teachers left do the job their paid to do. It's like teachers have become glorified gods. If a parent disagrees, for good reason, then their in fear of the teacher taking it out on their child. So many parents, out of intimidation and fear, don't say anything. THIS IS WRONG, AND NO TEACHER SHOULD HAVE OR USE THEIR POSITION IN THIS WAY, but many do. The parents are the ones who pay teachers salaries and their the ones who should have the say so in what is taught their children, NOT THE GOVERNMENT OR THE SCHOOL SYSTEM. There are a lot of very good and deserving teachers, but because of the union, it is almost impossible to get rid of the oh soooo many bad ones today, which causes many of the other teachers to have an I don't care attitude. This will all soon end in the near future because of technology. Slowly, they will be replacing teachers positions, as they retire, or before, with robots, t.v., and anything else they can come with, as they have in many other career fields. The trouble makers in the class rooms will be sent to other schools and areas that will control them so they cannot influence the students that behave. Everything will be completely under government control, communism. The process has been started long ago, and is still going on. Each year you see more and more of it. The public school system is next. Mark my word, all will see. I really feel sorry for the teachers that are wise and smart enough to see what is happening. I know and understand their frustration, as the wise and smart teachers are able to see what is to come.

Mandy42392....I do not know if you posted anything about what grade level you want to teach, but there are differences to each level that you might want to take into consideration. I teach high school science, so I cannot speak for elementary or middle grades. There are obviously different responsibilities and requirements depending on the level you teach. However, I think those people who try to talk about the teaching profession and have no clue what they are talking about having never worked in the profession themselves are idiots. It would be like me trying to put my two cents in on what it is like to be a doctor, plumber, electrician, etc., when I know nothing about those. I get paid for 10 months a year, and I don't get 10 days to take off whenever I want during the school year. I pay the same rate of property tax that anyone else in the area in which I live pays. I pay income taxes too...just like any other working person. I bring home about 20K a year as a teacher. I actually have to work another job just to be able to pay all of my bills. So I work 7 days a week (and I dont really get summers off because I have to work then too). Our state no longer gives raises/step increases. In fact, we are getting salary cuts next school year. In today's economy it is difficult to leave any job because another job is not easy to find. I spend so much money out of my own pocket for classroom supplies and lab materials (and this is not reimbursed to me). Since I am expected to do labs/hands-on activities with students, I have no choice on purchasing these materials. I do not know where some of these people posting get the idea that teachers sit in cushy chairs all day long. I stand in dress clothes/heels all day long most days teaching. Do not get me wrong, there are drawbacks and problems with every profession. The teaching profession is not the only one going downhill fast in more ways than one. However, I can no longer afford to remain in the profession, and will be finding another job (so that I only have to work one job per day). Some people should keep their mouth shut until they have walked in the shoes of another person.

I was a single mom. I went back to school to become a teacher. I worked hard. I made it through. I am in a masters program so I can live on the income I make. I go to school everyday and work my butt off. I put in aprox 13 hours each day, 8 with the kids, and the rest at home checking papers, planning and stressing. Most days I come home angry and upset. I'm also mad at myself and wonder how stupid am I to spend so much time and energy educating myself to be in debt and hate my job. I want my life back. I truly believe that this job will age me far faster than I should. I fantasize about walking out of my classroom mid day and dumping all of it. Why do I stay.....because I'm a dedicated worker who has no extra time to find another job. I agree with the comment before me. You really can't understand teaching unless you do it yourself. Unfortunately this is a job you can't understand until you are in it, and then it is too late. My advice to all future teachers out there......think twice........please.

Get an MBA instead of a teaching credential. In my district (somewhere in CA) there are NO: computers, aids, volunteers, pull-outs such as PE, Art, or Music, designated prep time during school hours, or cost of living raises. There are more students to teach, more English Learners, more Individual Learning Plans to create, more meetings to attend, more tests to give and grade (no machines grade first graders, I do), more students coming to school hungry, tired, and neglected. Oh, and teachers get less respect than uneducated, over-inked, unsupportive, rude parents who can't even be bothered to go through their child's folder or backpack. Very few parents are wonderful advocates for their children's education. Think it through. Loving children is no reason to teach. You have to love bulls**t too. Oh, and nobody but another teacher appreciates how hard you work, how much you care, or how much time and money (your own) you spend on your class.

Oh, and it takes closer to two weeks to set up your classroom effectively when they only give you 2 days. If you are hired after the designated 2 days, you have to come in on your weekend and slap it together without pay. Did that with a 2 and 4 year old in tow. While I barely pulled it off, my room is still being reorganized and my library has never been because I had to go from 3rd to 1st with 2 days notice. The summer before, I worked every day but 2 weeks when my childcare provider went on vacation. My room looked AWESOME. I was so proud. But hey non-teachers, it takes time to create those great bulletin boards with your child's work up there. Classrooms don't clean themselves, and we're lucky to be vacuumed once a week. Most teachers vacuum their own. I make my first graders get down on their hands and knees, crawl around and pick up their own messes at the end of the day. I don't have the time and they love the competition and table points. Creativity can't be taught. Teaching is not for the weak of heart or the feeble minded, and that's pretty much everybody else. Except of course for our armed forces and men and women in blue. You private sector wimps with your coffee breaks and bathroom trips anytime you want and flexible hours have no idea what we deal with on a daily basis. Especially those of us single parents who have sole custody and get no child support. I dare you to even attempt what I achieve on a daily basis. And my test scores are good. All my students, including my English Learners are making good progress toward grade level objectives. I'm very proud of that.

What is amazing to me is the number professed teachers and student teachers who are unable to compose a response without grammatical and spelling errors. It is an embarassing commentary on the profession.

All of the teacher bashing makes me sad. Not only are we bumping heads over what is the education of the people that will be ruling the world/country when we are too old to do it ourselves, but we are complaining about teachers complaining! I am in school right now to become a teacher, because it is what i want to do. I have worked at every job out there - from the veterinary industry to the food industry to party planning at a night club. Yea, I know going in that there will be longer hours, money coming out of my own pocket, and the stress of dealing with government problems/programs. Honestly, the shorter work year/days and vacations are a big reason why I decided to become a teacher. I intend on helping my own kids and spending time with them. The shorter work days/year and vacations will allow me to be a mother and a teacher. I understand why people would say that teachers are over paid babysitters, but have you ever seen a child crying in the corner because they didn't understand a lesson? Or had to deal with a child that has been abused or had parents that just didn't care?? I understand you are set on your opinion, just repsect the people that have to do a tough job - regardless of what they get paid. Money isn't everything when it comes to the kid's future and ours as well.

I would be interested for some of the "bashers" to post their industries and education level. And answer: why are you on this site? Does it make you feel good to put people down while hiding behind a computer screen?

V. Pinker- Your ignorance is appalling to say the least. I don't even know where to begin. First off, I don't know where you live but none of the teachers here have aids that they can pawn off work to. I guess maybe you just pulled that out of no where like many of the other arguments you make. You say that teachers only work 140 days because of holidays and such but the 185 days INCLUDES the holidays and such that teachers have off. Its not 185 minus those holidays. Also, 185 days is what the STUDENTS are required to attend. There are many days throughout the school year when the kids aren't there but the teachers are, doing professional development and other things to become more effective teachers. You also talk as though teachers don't pay the same taxes you do when in fact they do. There is no special tax break for teachers. You ask why the tax payers should pay our salaries and such?? Because tax payers are the CONSUMERS. If i buy a good or service from the company that you work for then I am in effect paying your salary. Does that make me your boss? If you have a problem with public schools than take it out on the government officials not the teachers working there. By the way, that pension that you speak of, teachers are FORCED to pay into it. I pay about 10,000 dollars a year into the pension system. If i wasn't forced to do so I could be investing that money on my own for future retirement but I don't have a choice. So again, if you have a problem address it to the government don't come on a TEACHING WEBSITE and vilify teachers. You sound like a bitter old man. "back when i was a kid...." Get with the new century it's not the 40s anymore. Don't act like the private sector doesn't offer the same perks that teaching does. I'm not saying all jobs do but I know several people who work in the private sector and they get full medical benefits as well as 401k contributions from their company where they match what the employee saves. Who pays for all this?? THE CONSUMER. I would love to see you last a week in an elementary school trying to maintain order with 25 kids while at the same time teaching students who learn in different ways at different levels. You probably wouldn't last the full week. It's not all sitting in "comfy chairs" as you put it.

By the way, I would have never signed up to this site to comment just to "whine" as you call it. I am merely defending myself and other teachers from garbage that you make up and insist to post on a TEACHING WEBSITE. How would you feel if someone came up to you and told you that your job was easy and that you were overpaid when you bust your butt everyday day and do everything you can for your students to succeed. I don't expect you to understand anything that I posted because it is obvious that you are ignorant in your ways. I'm only posting so that others might see that while teaching isn't a bad job at all, it's not the cake walk that you make it out to be teachers aren't villains out to steal money from the tax payers.

Well,I sure hope you got it all out cmitch. If you'd of read what I wrote clearly, you'd have seen I am more up set at the system, because of tenure, which prevents the system from getting rid of sooooo many bad teachers today, and there are a lot of them. In the business world, peoples salaries are based on what the market can pull, or it's suppose to. When one takes in the fact of a teachers salary and benefits, they are way above what the market can afford. You say you have 25 students or more in your class rooms. Well here in Fl. they passed a law that there can be no more than 20 students per class, and most of all of them now are 18 students and less. Many are migrants, getting a free education at others expense. Such small class sizes cannot afford what teachers are paid here, plus all the other cost with running a school system. and Yes, here they get 10 extra free days to just say they don't feel like going into work. Yes, they are also furnished aids. Why do soooo many students hate going to school in the first place, because there are SOOOOO MANY UNINTERESTING AND BORING TEACHERS. A GOOD TEACHER, knows how to make their subjects interesting for the students. Just because one has a load of credentials doesn't mean a thing. all it means is they are book smart and went to several years of college. As I said before, it doesn't take a degree to teach children. It takes a want and a love for that field. Sixty minutes showed a special years ago about a 12 year old little black girl that loved and wanted to teach. She made herself a little neighborhood class room and played teacher for the neighborhood children. To make a long story short, she was doing a better job at teaching the neighbor children than all the qualified teachers with their special degrees and years of learning. GO FIGURE. My daughter in 7th grade was at 1 1/2 grade reading level several years ago. The sorry school system just passed her along. Kept saying she was doing fine, and yes I was there for her, all the time. When I realized how they did her, YES, I WAS ANGRY, AND YOU WOULD BE TOO, if your child was just pushed on each year. I ended up having to hire a specialist at $35.00 an hour for anywhere from 2 to 6 hours weekly, out of my pocket, to get her caught up to 9th grade reading level for 3 years, on top of paying Approx. $60,000. yearly in property taxes, WAY MORE THAN WHAT THE SYSTEM PUT INTO MY CHILD. Yes, I'm pissed at the system. My child was let down, and it cost me a small fortune extra out of my own pocket to get her caught up to where she needed to be. Thank God she graduated with honors. She did it all on her own after the specialist showed her the way. I'm not against teachers making a decent living, but for goodness sakes, they really need to get rid of all the lazy bad ones, and there's a lot out there.EXAMPLE: when my daughter was in 9th and 10th grade, BOTH YEARS, she had a several of teachers, that did nothing most of the year. They sat at their computers telling the students what kind of houses, cars, etc., they'd like to buy. Or, they'd sit chatting on their cell phones most of the class periods, Throw a little home work at the students every now and then, and give them ALL passing grades to look good. I'm talking about anywhere from 5 to 6 teachers this way. My daughter got angry, in each of the classes, and while entering them, she slammed her books on each teachers desks and told them all they need to do the work they're being paid to do. We reported them to the principle. Do you think it helped, heck no. Ya, they started teaching for awhile, but then as a dog returns to it's vomit, so does a fool to their follies. I transferred her to another school she ended up loving. Here they are trying to finally pass a law to get rid of teachers tenure, and it's about time. Then hopefully we can get rid of the LAZY teachers so our children will learn and be taught like they need to be. If I don't do a good job on my job, I get fired. Well, that should apply to anyone, including teacher, or anyone else for that matter. The teachers I'm talking about know who they are. As I don't know what your state is, here in Fl. we have some of the lowest test scores in the U.S. What does that tell you. Our kids can't hardly read when they graduate and the teachers are not required to teach the students cursive writing anymore. Like I say, a good teacher deserves to make a decent living, so it's time to get rid of the bad ones and redistribute their salaries to the well deserved one.

What about people consuming teachers’ product? Are they (you personally) ready to pay more for education. What classes do you think should be paid and what shouldn’t? And why your government should pay teachers more if they are ready to work for the current money? Teachers are paid like any other professionals from middle class. Programmers, engineers, builders – all have almost the same salary, nuances are dependent on the market. -- Tailored IT solutions www.headmastersoft.com sales@headmastersoft.com

Wow. It's amazing how numbers can take on a life of their own. Somehow, in one of the posts, 190 days became 2/3 of a year. First of all, most districts require closer to 200 or more days for their teachers. Secondly, last I checked 5 days a week (what most careers require unless you're self-employed which is a completely different scenario) times 50 weeks (2 weeks vacation seems to be pretty standard) is 250 days. Subtract holidays and sick days and, like many comments have said, that brings it to about 240 days of work. That brings the 200 days for teachers to closer to 80% than 66%. Of course, that's assuming teachers only work 200 days. As many teachers have posted, most have to work summers to continue to make ends meet. Interesting that at least a couple have indicated that we have the best insurance ($880 of tax-payer expense one of them said) and retirement packages. First of all, my district pays an average of $400 or less per employee. I have to pick up the tab for the rest of my family as well as my own dental and vision if I choose....and, by the way, as many company's programs are run, the number of children doesn't change the price. As for retirement, I still have to pay 10.5+% of my income into the public school retirement system. I'm not sure where the writer gets off saying that teachers somehow pay less in taxes than others. The only thing I can deduct from my taxes because I'm a teacher is up to $250 in classroom expenses. Everything else stays the same. Maybe I pay less in property taxes because i can't afford as expensive a house, but that would be the only reason. Also, one thing that doesn't get brought up much is that in order to become a certificated teacher in most states (if not all) you have to go through a student teaching semester. This could be equated to an internship in most businesses except that we get to pay for ours...to the tune of about 10 credit hours (obviously, specific cost depends on the college). For most, the time needed to complete the student teaching also precludes them from any paying job during that time too. One thing that the chart at the top about hourly pay doesn't seem to indicate is the number of hours they are using in their calculations. If they use the popular figure of 36 hours per week and then using higher numbers for the other fields, I can see how the numbers would be as they are presented. However, if you can find a teacher that puts in 36 hours every week, you've found a rare find. Most weeks I am in my building for about 45 hours. Yes, a few of those (maybe 5 per week) are technically by choice. However, those are the hours spent before students arrive getting ready for their arrival. Sure, some teachers regularly arrive 10 minutes before the students get to class. Those are also the teachers who stay after school for an extra 30 minutes to an hour getting ready for the next day (believe it or not, some teachers are not morning persons too). Teacher assistants: I'm not sure what school district still pays for enough teacher assistants so that teachers don't have to grade their own papers. We have a few teacher assistants in my building but we are a rarity in the district. Tenured teachers: Sure some teachers toe the line until they are tenured and then sit back and do nothing. I would seriously doubt that the percentage is any higher than in any other field. Have you heard the news stories about the doctors, accountants, etc who don't perform up to current standards? "Free-loaders" are out there in any field. That's a lousy fact of our society. To think that all teachers fit that mold is pathetic. As one post mentioned, tenure is based on the assumption that teachers are able to stay in one district that long. Many districts, even with the meager salaries, can't afford to keep experienced teachers on their payroll. How many corporations will get rid of workers with four years experience to go with someone just out of college merely to save money? The notion that teachers get their degrees and can then rest on their laurels is a thing of the past. Lifetime certification is also a thing of the past (my state stopped that in the mid-80s along with many other states). My original certificate with three years. In those three years, in addition to maintaining a teaching job, I had to 1) complete additional professional development (often times, not compensated), 2) complete a mentoring program (the district I was in did pay the mentors but not the mentees), and 3) complete an evaluation program (which didn't require a considerable amount of work on my part but required at least 8 principal observations). After successfully completing the three years, I got a 7-year certificate. Same requirements (except for the new-teacher mentoring program) plus I now had to complete graduate credit hours each of the 7-years (most of the time, not paid for by the district). The 7-year certificate could be renewed providing the qualifications were met. The top-level certificate for teachers is a ten-year certificate which is only granted once you've earned a master's degree. Additional professional-development is still required to renew. So, now, even though I don't have to renew the certificate except for every ten years, I do have to pay for my education through student loans. Many teachers are also still paying off their bachelor's degree by the time they get to that point too. Would I give up my teaching career? Certainly not for any of these reasons! Teaching children is one of the most important jobs in the country! The quality of life in the future will depend solely on the quality of education now. Those of you complaining about low social security benefits, think of how low they'll be if current elementary and secondary students can't hold down a job and pay into that system when it's time for you to start pulling out of it.

For the non-teachers or potential teachers reading this: I love teaching. I love to help kids learn and design lessons that lead them to new knowledge. Unfortunately, the majority of my time isn't spent teaching. It's spent filling out forms and dealing with discipline and attending meetings and grading papers, etc... For me, the couple hours a day I get to actually teach make up for the rest. It makes up for the low pay and long hours and ulcers. Every job has two sides. I get to make a difference and do something I love, but I have to take the bad with the good. I've told my students it's like getting a tattoo (this is the kind of metaphor they relate to : ) ), it hurts, but it's worth it if you've really thought hard and decided it's what you want to do. These 'voluntary' hours that we work are kind of not 'voluntary.' If I refused to sell basketball tickets and supervise school dances and decorate for Homecoming and attend performances and come to parent/teacher night and all the other things I am 'asked' to do, I would find myself out of a job. I've spent the last three Saturday nights at school. Do you spend Saturday night at work 41 years? Do you every go home and cry because you want so badly to help someone and you feel as if your supervisor has tied your hands? Please, don't make all teachers responsible for the lazy, horrible teachers you must have had. If it makes you feel any better, my job is in jeopardy every semester. I think that's kind of a good thing for the profession.

WOW! I cannot believe what I am reading. How disappointing and ashamed some of you people are being. You whiners and complainers are the EXACT type people/parents WE teachers talk about everyday. The ones who are CLUELESS, Unmotivated, irresponsible and can't even help your child with their homework. PLEASE. Why the hell are you on this board anyways. Ridiculous. You need to ride on over to freaking whiners club and join on in. And you are also speaking on teachers in your state. You have NO clue what other states retirement...plans are. I spend hours after hours working and loving my 5th graders daily. I have gobs of emails, letters from parents thanking me for my hardwork. I have spent over 1,000 this year on my kids, classroom and professional dev. books. I only get 250 of that back on taxes too as someone stated. I just like the other person would challenge you to step into a classroom for one week. I bet you couldn't even handle it. You would be complaining and crying before the week was out. It takes a special person to be a teacher and you should be thankful that your daughter has had a support system and great teachers. And her falling behind, that was all on YOU sweetheart. You are the issue. I don't even want to go into what I think is the problem there. For those of you wanting to teach. Do it. Its the most rewarding job one can have. It takes perserverance, strength, compassion, PATIENCE and love to do, but you will love it. I have been teaching for 10 years and I still have 25 more to go. 20 years at retirement. I don't know what you are smoking! We can't retire here until at least 35 years of teaching. SO, please get your facts straight before you go on this board where you DON"T belong and go bashing these hardworking citizens. And good benefits...HA, I wish. Please. Again, you have NO clue what my benefits are and if you did, you sure woudlnt' have opened your rude mouth. And get our grades up in comparison to other countries... WELL, we will do that as long as you start parenting like others in other countries. I think the bottom line is....you people judging, complaining and bashing on here ....you guys are VERY jealous apparently. If you wanted to be off inthe summers, then go get a degree instead of sitting on your fat a** and bashing others.

I have not been back here in quite a while, and I see that the teacher whining topic I started has garnered quite a bit of back and forth responses. Let me clear up a thing or two. First of all I never whined, not even in my first post ..... I said that I was tired of hearing teachers whine about how bad it is for them and how little they earn. I also never said that I am not happy with myself or my life, as a matter of fact I make quit a bit of money in my profession .... and it is honest money earned and not subsidized or paid for by taxes on the public. And as to this "best5thgradeteacher", she/he seems just a bit perturbed that others don't agree with her/him. Sorry but we are all not clueless, or jealous or have fat asses, as you seem to think that all that disagree with you are or have. If you were really interested in the truth, you could search it out and find for yourself the true cost to the taxpayer for teachers and the entire public school system. And it has become ridiculously expensive and bloated. But to cut you just a bit of slack .... and not much mind you, just a bit. It is not only teachers but all public employees and their unions that are driving our country into insolvency ..... bankruptcy. What is going on in Greece right now should be a lesson for us ...... but I am afraid we will not learn it. Here's that little bit of slack that I am giving you ..... it is not your fault, as an individual that is. It is your unions fault and almost all other public employee unions throughout the country. The system itself has become corrupted, and you "best5thgradeteacher" are a prime example of how broken the system is. It seems that you truly believe that you are underpaid, that working 20 to 35 years in order to collect double or more what the average Social Security recipient will receive after 45 years on the job, that working somewhere around 185 days a year is normal, and that your benefits aren't good ..... do you even know that many, many people have NO benefits? And spring breaks and every holiday (MLK day, whats with that .... the real world has to go to work on that day no matter what color you are), and Christmas vacation (I know you don't like to call it Christmas anymore in your schools .... tough cookies, I do), and summer vacation .... really? And you think you don't get benefits ..... get real. OK, that's all the slack you get .... you have been brainwashed by your fellow teachers and your union into actually believing these things ...... you are actually under worked and overpaid, not the other way around and you have been brainwashed to believe. I don't hate teachers, anymore than I hate waitresses or truck drivers. It's just that they don't whine about how bad they have it even though they have it much worse. What they earn and get in benefits (if any) is not bankrupting the country. Though I would like to go on I am out of time this morning. Have a nice day.

Check this out for a starting salary. http://www.westfieldnjk12.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=6823&sc_id=1126192354 To Obtain Licensing Information for NJ: http://www.state.nj.us/education Requirements Upon Hire * Criminal History Review * Physical Examination/Mantoux Test Salary/Benefits for Contracted Positions * Salary Commensurate with Experience * (2010-2011 contrated starting salary: Step 1/ B - $57,289) * Health Insurance for non leave replacement positions * Funds for Conferences/Seminars * Sick Leave/Personal Days Send cover letter, resume, and copy of certification(s) to: Office of Human Resources 302 Elm Street Westfield, NJ 07090

I wonder if the teacher bashers on this site are also bashing the salaries of other professions. I recently emailed my lawyer, and for an email response that took no more than five minutes, I was charged $100. Now, I could go on some lawyer salary site and start complaining and freaking out, but why spread hate. People post bashing posts to this site because they are jealous. I'm pretty sure these same bashers are not complaining about every single profession who they find cushier and/or easier. I am sure that rocket scientists are working in air-conditioning and have cushier chairs and really nice salaries. They are not doing physically demanding work, but they went through a lot of schooling to earn their position. I could be jealous, but no, that would be foolish. They work hard at what they do and we all benefit from the rocket scientists sacrifice. If it bothers me enough, then I'll go study rocket science and then I can sit in one of NASA's cushy chairs in the air-conditioning...HA!!! Only kidding. I've seen the complaints from a poster repeatedly about her daughter not getting help in school. Now I have children in the public school system as well, and I have had some good teachers as well as bad teachers, but that doesn't mean that they are all bad. It also doesn't mean that I'd go on a website designed for teachers and start complaining repeatedly. I have to say, if your property taxes are $60,000 a year in Florida, then you must live in a very nice house. If you are fortunate enough to have a house assessed at that tax rate, then surely you could have plunked down more than $35 an hour for a tutor. I do not put a monetary value on helping my child nor would complain. I have a child with learning disabilities. I do not expect a teacher to cure her. I know teachers tried their best to help her. Most school districts frown upon giving special services to students because it costs the taxpayers MONEY. The burden is then dropped in the parent's lap. What helps the taxpayer sometimes hurts the individuals who also pay taxes. It is a no-win situation. Now I do not know all the facts in your case, and there is probably another side to this as well. Anyway, maybe you should find a more productive way to help like getting a teaching degree or becoming a lobbyist instead of posting comments to teachers that have absolutely nothing to do with your own issue. As for teachers' salaries, my husband and I are both teachers and although we are able to raise three children and live a middle-class existence, we are by no means riding some gravy train. Before I was a teacher, I worked in the private sector. I am constantly hearing how teachers do not know what the real world is like, but that is incorrect. I have had some jobs much more physically demanding, but certainly not as emotionally and mentally taxing as this. I keep hearing people saying that they are sick of hearing teachers complain, but I do not feel like they are really complaining. Maybe venting off a little steam now and then, but who doesn't? I would love to meet anyone who doesn't complain about their job sometime...even people with the most wonderful jobs must find something to complain about. That is human nature. As for my own job, it has been wonderful. I teach in a high school with kids that sometimes even call me "mom". They make me laugh, they make me cry. They learn from me and I learn from them. I tell them that what they do in these four years may impact the rest of their lives, so work very hard and value your education. I spend more time with some of these kids than their families do..and sometimes I spend more time with them than my own family. I do not get paid in the summertime and see it as the make-up time to reconnect with my kids. My husband has to get a summer job to pay the bills. There are days that I get disgusted (like when a parent called and complained because she was angry that I had offered extra help after school and her child was busy), and there are days that I feel blessed. I think all of us, teacher and non-teacher, have those days. I just feel that it so sad that this world has come to people sitting at a computer going to a professional website and venting about something that has happened in the past or some perceived wrong and just blasting people. Technology has been such a mixed blessing. It is a way to tear people down from behind a screen. Very sad. Is the economy bad? Yes. Are we lucky to have our teaching jobs? Yes. Are the rest of the employed people around lucky to have their jobs too? YES. Count your blessings, stop hating. The world is a scary and angry enough place without people adding to the angst. In a crisis, we have to support one another. I refuse to let people who have not been in my shoes or been in my classroom bring me down. I refuse to give in to shallow minds and hard hearts. My fellow teachers, I have advice for you all: ignore the haters on this site and every other site. Do not let them bring you down and do not let them deter you from your chosen field. Be strong and know in your heart that you are loved and appreciated.

Hi everybody! I am curently a junior in high shool and planning on becoming a high school teacher. Teaching is really all that I've ever wanted to do, but lately I've been getting very scared. I keep hearing that I will never be able to support myself and that I could never buy a house on my own (This has been my dream for as long as I can remember). I'm not looking for people to bash on teachers. I would just like some kind and honest advice from people that have actually experienced living on a teacher's salary. I want to teacch because it is what I love, but if I won't be able to support myself I would like to know before it's too late...

I really believe this entire debate about teaching salaries really depends on the district with which you are associated with. As a teacher, what bothers me the most is the way schools are funded. It just seems like the wealthier areas continue to recieve more and more money, and the less privelaged areas continue to struggle. I work in a rural area, and don't believe I am compensated well enough for the work that I put forth. Yes, it was my decision to become a teacher and ultimately I did have a choice of taking the job in the district that I did. However, teaching jobs are so hard to come by, I jumped at the first teaching job I was offered. I am thankful everyday for the job that I have, but I'll admit, it's hard to deal with the fact that I am paid so much less than other teachers with the same amount of experience and college education based soley on the district in which I teach. I totally agree that teachers with tenure can be a huge problem. However, tenure is not something that every school district has. Also, I don't have an aide, I have a student who has an aide, so please don't lump all teachers together and say they pawn their work off on other people. I am proud to be a teacher, and I would welcome any person to please come into my classroom and do what I do for a week. I would hope that you would change your opinion about all teachers.

Wow...I just spent quite a bit of time reading this whole discussion. This is not why I came on this site and it's definetely not what I expected to find, but I could not stop reading. I have wanted to be a teacher since I was in elementary school. I'm twenty years old and just now starting to seriously look into it. I must say I've become very confused. I'm not sure if I'm going down the right path anymore. Which is disappointing because I was very excited about it. The salary and benefits sound great to me, having grown up in exreme poverty. I'm sorry but I'm about to go way off track here... I have to comment about the older person who wrote about poor people and their children being parasites. This is disgusting, you are disgusting. It is not our choice to be born, and it's certainly not our choice to be born into poverty with parents who don't give a $h!t about us except for the benefits we obtain for them. I don't want to be like my parents but what can I do? I still had to start at the bottom. So yes, I had my child with the help of Medicaid, and you know what? I'm not the least bit ashamed of it. I love my child more than most wealthy people will ever have the capacity to love their own children or anyone else. I'm not bitter about the conditions I had to grow up in, what would be the point? I look forward to my future because I know I make the choices that build that future. I don't want to be rich. I would like to have money to support my family but I guess I don't feel I need as much as most people find necessary. Personal and emotional satisfaction is what really makes success, not how much money you make. Life is hard and will always be hard. The government is messed up and will always be messed up. It must be difficult to organize people on such a large scale, I certainly wouldn't want to be apart of that responsibility. All we can do is try to make a difference in the ways that we can and make the most of our life. Parents are supposed to be the number one support and love in their child's life, it's only natural. But it's truly horrifying how that has changed in this world, people have lost that most basic instinct to love and care for their own offspring above all ele. So while the issue of some teachers not doing a good enough job is important, it would be wiser to address the bigger picture. Children are our future, they need to be loved by the people who brought them into this world the most, eveyone else comes second to that.

Sorry, now that I got all of that out... I need to do some serious thinking about whether or not I should pursue a career in teaching. I still believe it would be very rewarding to me, but is there really a need for teachers now and in the future? I'm not sure after reading some of the comments if I will even be able to find a job. Are there too many teachers? And will people hate me just because of my job title. Oh, and by the way, even if taxes weren't going towards education you'd still have to pay just as much. It would just go to some other cause that you have no say in, so don't blame teachers or anyone else.

41 years = troll. I wonder if they are paid enough....

I'm a bit confused here - I thought this was a forum for intelligent adults to have a constructive discussion. So far it reads like children fighting in a sand box. Most of you should be ashamed. If you have facts, give your source please. Otherwise it is not really a fact, just your interpretation of a fact you once read and may or may not have understood.

I just found this website and it is quite interest and informative. I have three degrees (one bachelors and two masters) I have been teaching 10 years at the college level and 10 years at the high school level (public). Before I went into the classroom I was an HR professional; traveling and consulting and working 60 hours a week 50 weeks a year. I loved my job in HR but I made a decision to put my family first and education has made that possible. I love teaching and I feel I have made a difference in the lives of many students over the years. I never expected to be paid like I was paid in corporate American, but I did expect to be rewarded for performance above and beyond. This is my biggest grip in educational salaries. The teacher across the hall can show movies all day long and use "canned" curriculum with very little effort and I can be teaching 4 different courses and developing all my own instructional and assessment materials and we both get paid the same! If you want the best to stay in any profession you need to reward excellent performance. If we can figure out how to do that we will bring the profession into the 21st century!!

Well I have read every single one of these comments. Those of you who are teachers will be happy to know I am still going to pursue a degree in teaching. There are a lot of hateful comments toward teachers on this site, but I think the main thing we are all forgetting is what is important for these kids. Someone has to help mold these young minds into better people. Yes there are a couple of bad batches in the field, but what occupation doesn't have a few bad apples? If you really want to change that then take action at your local school and fight for a better education for your child. Find out through your kid what is happening in school, check their work, ask about their day and trust me if you truly get involved in their education you will know if they are receiving the education their suppose to. If they are not work towards getting rid of the one who is not doing their job. Nothing will change until you make it.

I came to this site in an effort to look over possible states to move to once I'm finished with my degree in December and it was helpful for that. Then I started reading through the discussions that were going on and I have been trying to decide whether or not to comment. Try as I might to avoid it, I decided to make my opinions known. ALL of us need to stop and think about the things that have been said. First, not all of what 41 years and V. Pinker have said is inaccurate or false, but by no means does that mean that all of what they've said is true either. First off, let me just say that I do think we as a county need large scale reform in education. First off I think we do have to address the idea of tenure. And by address, I mean we need to get rid of tenure and negotiate it to a better system of teacher pay. The concept of lanes and steps just irritates the hell out of me. for the people who don't think that teachers are paid enough, we can negotiate our way to better salaries if we're not tied into a pay schedule. Additionally this would eliminate predatory hiring practices such as hiring brand new teachers at lower wages so as to avoid the cost of paying poor teachers who are tenured. This being said, I think we also need to eliminate some of the oversight in management terms and districts need to do a better job of finding principals and superintendents with visions of how they want a district and schools that they work for. Now on to the other part of my comments. First, to address the idea of teachers not paying the same level of taxes that other people do. That is ludicrous, I am a social studies ed major with an emphasis in Government and I have spent time working with local and state officials in education and I have seen our state's tax code and there is no magical, mystical loophole for teachers. Property taxes are based on the VALUE OF THE PROPERTY so of course a person who is making a very good living in the private sector is going to most likely pay a higher amount of property taxes than teachers because they're most likely going to have a more expensive and higher valued home than the teacher. Now I'm going to leave just one more thought. I love teaching. I consider it an honor and a privelege to be able to teach the students with whom I have interacted and I hope to continue teaching for many years. Regardless of what your opinions of teachers and our education system is, I think we can all agree that some of the comments made on both sides of the argument are more than a little vitriolic and at times, just mean. And there's no reason to be that way. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I love to discuss these issues with people, but I try to always be cordial and respectful. That being said, I hope you all are in good health and have a great day. Thanks.

41, I have spent the last 20 years of my life in the pharmaceutical industry, making significant six figure salaries. I am leaving that to teach, because no other investment in society brings greater rewards than educating children, helping them with the fundamentals of critical thinking, or help them learn the core learnings that will make them successful, no matter what profession they choose. You and the teacher basher from Florida are so incredibly wrong about what teaching is, it is the primary investment in the future of our Country and society. Yes, I am making this decision, but it is because I love children and know that education is the "great equalizer". If all children have access to quality educations, great mentors, coaches and leaders, then they have the opportunity for success, no matter what race, or socioeconomic level. I am non-union, do not like unions, and think they are a detriment to advancing education, but so are fools like you! If you want quality educations, you need to provide economic incentives for the best and brightest to teach. I can afford to do so because I have had a wonderful career in the private sector, and want to do what I love, teach. You and your ilk are so incredibly misinformed and ignorant about the love of children that drives most teachers, you discuss K-12 Teachers as if they were college professors, where grad assistance are your graders, you have full tenure, and sabbaticals.Teachers are greater contributers to the future of society than any other profession, yet they are not compensated at a level commensurate with their contribution. I know many physicians who work 3 or 4 day weeks, take very lengthy vacations, yet they are really only helping a few. I am convinced that your heart has been hardened and will not change, but I pray that God show's you more mercy than you show others.

I must say that everyone's circumstances and situations are different. I happen to teach is NC which is a state at the bottom with teacher's salaries. However, I am very happy with my career. Of course our salary should be better but if you choose teaching, it's because you have a passion for teaching and shaping the future of our children. That's the bottom line. For those of you who are pursuing a career in teaching, DO NOT allow people's personal opinions get in the way of your heart's desires. Go for it and excel in it! It is your goal not anyone else's. It is wise to stay informed about issues that pertain to teaching but check the facts before you rule it out. You could be ruling out the next president of the US, the next doctor, next lawyer, etc. TEACHING IS THE BOMB IF YOU ARE COMMITTED!!!!!!

Wow this was truly a interesting topic. I love being a teacher and have no complaints.

to sbshearer93, V. Pinker, and 41 years: sbshearer93 - I am very sorry to read that no one on here has responded to your post. I am an Algebra 1 teacher and I have been teaching for a year and a half. My husband does work, but he is also a student, so he only works part time and makes minimum wage. That means, I am the primary income. We are expecting our first child in March, and basically live off of my income. We do struggle right now, but that is a lot our fault due to college debt and having two car payments. My advice to you is, yes, you can live on a teachers income easily and buy a house, if you are smart with your money through college, do not go into debt (other than loans because I know first hand that sometimes that is a necessity), and you budget wisely. If you do those things, it is not hard to live on a teacher's salary, and you can still have a little entertainment money if you are in a bigger school disrict. I hope this helps. Teaching is a very rewarding profession. I have no complaints about being a teacher, or the pay. Sure I wish I made more money, but who doesn't? Like I said to sbshearer93, the only reason we struggle is because of our own past screw ups. I would like to say a few things to 41 years and V. Pinker though. First of all V. Pinker, it sounds from your earlier posts that you are an amazing parent, and for that I thank and applaud you. I am sorry that the school system where you are overlooked your daughter, that should have never happened. Some of the teachers on here have made some very rude comments toward the two of you, but I do understand the basis for many of them. It was definitely not handeled properly though, especially since as teachers, very similar to ministers, we are held to a higher standard. Please do understand though that, yes, there are definitely some very bad teachers out there who still have jobs and shouldn't. I wish for the sake of our children that there were a faster way to get rid of them if they are doing anything to harm the well being of their students. Most teachers are good and caring though. I am not sure how it is in every state (it seems that teachers in Florida have it easier than most) but in Texas I am not aware of a cut off number for class size. I wish there was a lower one because it is VERY difficult to teach a class of 35 freshman Algebra 1. I can pull in all the hands on mainpulatives and activities I want, but trust me, if I student does not wish to learn a subject, they are very difficult to motivate, so please do not judge and say "if they were a good teacher they would keep them entertatined" or whatever was said in an earlier post, I think by 41 years (sorry if I misquoted, but I am fairly certain it was very close). Our calendar year is 184 days, working days. We do get 5 state days and in my district 3 local days. First, I don't take them if I don't have to (though I will this year since I am pregnant) but we get them incase we get sick, not if we just want to call in. If we do that, we receive bad evaluations and could be fired. My school pays very little of my health care and I pay a lot. We are only paid for the days we work, it is just spread over the course of 12 months so we get a check every month, so we are not paid for our vacations (unless you count those 8 days that we may or may not take). With recent laws being passed, if our students do not meet a certain (high I might add) standard, we, as well as our principal, can and will be fired which places even more stress on teachers. Again, I do appologize for the rude remarks made by some of the other teachers, but they were simply defending the very rewarding job they love and felt like was being attacked because I must admit, many of y'alls comments were rude and seemed to be attacking teaching. I am not sure why y'all are on here, but it is a free country still so more power to you!! I hope I have cleared up some things and that you understand a little more than before. Thank you and God bless!

Between New York, Houston, and Chicago, which city is in the greatest need of Spanish teachers? Best city to raise a family? Best opportunity to make a difference? I have about two years left for my BA. I plan on teaching high school in the inner cities, and would like to work with troubled kids. I feel I can take on this challenge. Any insight and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...

I agree. I am so incredibly tired of whining teachers. Teaching is a profession that has been a part of my family for generatons from professors, to principles to instructors. My parents were teachers (that is actually how they met) and my husband and I teach (and that is how we met). I have always been a part of the social upper class. Growing up, we lived in the best of neighborhoods and were a part of terrific social circles. My husband and I are very comfortable. We have a beautiful home, 2 new cars and substantial savings. I get so tired of people treating teachers as if we are saints to "decide" to work with "bad" children for little to nothing. While teachers have a calling to do what they do, what fool do you know would study for years to live like a pauper? Not I. My husband and I travel, I go to spas, and I wear designer clothing. In addition to that, our school is great and our students are some of the best in the district. Of course teaching is difficult work but so is being a doctor or even a parent, and all are so rewarding. Simply put, it's a great gig! You work roughly from 8am untl 3pm. You get all of your summers and major holidays off and you are still paid, There is always some opportunity to participate in some type of fellowship whether it is overseas or domestic, the benefits are great and as the other person said, we can retire earlier than anyone else I know. My aunt and uncle who are of course teachers have been retired since they turned 60 years old. That was about 8 years ago and my aunt just purchased a Mercedes truck. They go on cruises every year and just returned from Jeruselum. I don't know about any of you, but teaching for my family and me is not only rewarding and a privilage to positively affect so many lives, but it has always been a financial provider. I think that people feel that our salaries should be even higher because of all that we do. We not only teach, but we nuture. There are many parents who are not as attentive as they could be and we deal with the results of this daily. But I don't mind because I love my students and I tell them so daily.

Forgive me everyone for the spelling error: Jerusalem. Also, forgive the punctuation error: paid, there (lowercase t) and until (instead of untl) This is what I get for typing too fast before dinner. (lol)

Teaching is a great gig. I worked in ministry 23 years as a youth pastor and never made more than 45 thousand a year, a starting teachers salary here in Maryland, (no benefits at times, my wife had to work full time to provide this for us) working 50 weeks a year, weekends, evenings, 50 plus hours a week. Most of the time I worked as a substitute teacher to supplement my income. I used to see these young teachers driving nicer cars, and buying homes wondering why I wasn't able to do the same for my family. Perspective is the answer here. I was very content in ministry but now that I have a kid in college I had to make a change. TEACHERS GOT IT REAL GOOD, EVEN IF THEY BRING HOME WITH THEM. It is a very family friendly career. I wish I had done it years ago.

correction to previous post; TEACHERS GOT IT REAL GOOD, EVEN IF THEY BRING WORK HOME WITH THEM.